Author Topic: The STS program may be extended by two more years...  (Read 49364 times)

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The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« on: March 08, 2010, 08:01:11 PM »
'nuf said.

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desktopsimmer

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 08:22:29 PM by desktopsimmer »
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Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 09:28:08 PM »
Obama is going to conduct a conference in Florida on April 15. He is going to announce a timeline for a future crewed mission to Mars and a heavy-lift vehicle.

They may add one more mission to STS, but NASA certainly won't have the Shuttle's flying beyond that if Obama announces the heavy-lift vehicle, as they have to get rid of old and expensive structures before they can do something else seriously.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20100307/NEWS0204/3070319/Obama-to-talk-space-in-Florida-visit

rocket_man55

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 09:28:49 PM »
Hehe cool. Thanks for the links man. :3 :D :D :) :)

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 09:36:54 PM »
Obama is going to conduct a conference in Florida on April 15. He is going to announce a timeline for a future crewed mission to Mars and a heavy-lift vehicle.

They may add one more mission to STS, but NASA certainly won't have the Shuttle's flying beyond that if Obama announces the heavy-lift vehicle, as they have to get rid of old and expensive structures before they can do something else seriously.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20100307/NEWS0204/3070319/Obama-to-talk-space-in-Florida-visit

I suggest to wait for the votes. Some already know the outcome, with an accuracy of 90%, but of course, until the news is out any speculation is legitimate  ;D

I am not sure however if I should be happy or sad when the announcement is made.

1. Happy because the US will still be in Space with an amazing platform, bridging a future US Space Program, or...

2. ...sad (or better said, "worried") that there are only 3 fatigued Shuttles left and that is not a good reason for optimism. One thing I know, I will be watching TENSLY every Shuttle liftoff and landing beyond the planned retirement of 2010.

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Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 09:57:13 PM »
Well, an STS extension to 2015 would not really bridge a future program, but rather continuing to eat up a lot of budget and prevent innovation. It would be just a giant political job machine and a delay of the unpreventable gap, with NASA still facing not an "own" manned future.

Guess what Obama will announce if his conference happens after the "successful" (who knows) Falcon 9 launch... ;)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 09:58:58 PM by Moonwalker »

simking

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 04:48:03 PM »
Its a strange feeling really America without a manned launch vehicle and our astronauts being delivered by the Russians...what if Russia says ok no more Americans the station is ours now... :o
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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 05:26:15 PM »
As I said to Uri_ba just last night, " It aint over till it's over...."


I'm betting for an extension....

desktopsimmer

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 01:31:44 AM »
...With each mission having a very tight pre check of all of the Shuttle structure. If I was a betting man, I would say they run endavour and have discovery as a backup for each mission, which would be one, maybe two missions a year
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Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 03:18:35 AM »
Its a strange feeling really America without a manned launch vehicle

The USA already was without a flying manned launch vehicle and without any manned access to space for 6 years (from 1975 to 1981). And that also whilst they had a station in orbit (Skylab), but just unmanned and by the time out of control.

This time the remaining benefits are permanently not only for the USA (which Apollo was not): the hugest and most modern manned system humans have ever build and put into earth orbit, that is manned 365 days a year. The USA does not enter a gap of manned space flight this time: because they will just travel into space by a different system for a while. Only people which suffer from the old nationalistic "not invented here" mentality will have a hard time :P

and our astronauts being delivered by the Russians...what if Russia says ok no more Americans the station is ours now... :o

Don't be afraid. That's by all means (first of all politically, then fiscally and logistically) an impossible, fictive scenario. Beside the fact that this would not make any single spark of sense, Russia would also not have much money in future to do "big" things in space, and it would also immediately divide the world into "east" and "west" again. That's something no politician is interested in these days, already because it simply could mean serious economical and political problems which especially Russia would suffer really bad from. Russia is just in the beginning of becomming something like rich and "free" (basically freedom of opinion). But most importantly: the ISS is not a Russian station, nor a US station. It's an international station that is internationally operated and serviced ;)

The world is not going to become worse these days like one might tend to think or "feel". It's just a pessimistic "structural depression" some people suffer from because they watch and read too much onesided bad news and media. It is just moaning on a high level. If one looks closely, the times especially in Europe, the USA and other developed regions, are as good as almost never before if we talk about wealth and freedom (I think that almost nobody wants to go back sixty-five years...). Also manned spaceflight is as progressive and as amazing as never before. Just because the USA won't ride on its own "invented here" toy for a while does not mean the end of the world ;D

I'm betting for an extension....

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 03:21:47 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 03:52:16 AM »
There is nothing wrong with patriotism and legitimate national interests (not "nationalistic" as you label them). Despite globalization, each nation is entitled to have its own interests, just as any individual is entitled to have his/her own ideals and personal/private goals.

Can you explain why, while every nation that contributed to the ISS proudly displays this achievement with little flags in prominent places throughout the ISS, the US should not aim for same pride of achevement? Aren't pride, patriotism and national interest legitimate rights of the US too?

Pride, patriotism and legitimate national interests are some of the more powerful ingredients which push a nation to achieve more, and faster. US, just like any other nation, should not be snared at for having them, under any circumstance, especially since most of the recent history technological and scientific achevements have been reached either by, or with American crucial assistance - including, and especially the ISS.

Today more nations can join the Space Club thanks to "nationalistic" space race between USSR and USA. ESA, JAXA, and other Space Agencies owe their creation to space programs initiated, largely funded and supported by the US - just like the pathetic UN.

So a little respect and humbleness are in order here, regardless of political opinions.

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 03:59:39 AM by Admin »
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schmidtrock

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 05:55:43 AM »
Thank you Admin, my eyes had glazed over ;) Very well said, thanks.

Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 06:49:15 AM »
There is nothing wrong with patriotism and legitimate national interests (not "nationalistic" as you label them). Despite globalization, each nation is entitled to have its own interests, just as any individual is entitled to have his/her own ideals and personal/private goals.

Patriotism looks different in this context, because it is partly the "not invented here syndrome". Some people are afraid of using Soyuz because it is not a US system, not operated by the US, that is "not invented here" (and in some cases because it's from ex-communists). This is a form of nationalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here

Can you explain why, while every nation that contributed to the ISS proudly displays this achievement with little flags in prominent places throughout the ISS, the US should not aim for same pride of achevement? Aren't pride, patriotism and national interest legitimate rights of the US too?

If they use Soyuz for ISS support and US crew transport, there is nothing wrong or worse to use Soyuz "only" whilst NASA does not manage to get a STS replacement.

Times have changed anyway. Look to Boeing: the new Boeing 787 is not really an American airplane anymore for the first time. It's a global product. Boeing does just the final assembly. Just like the ISS also is not just a US program solely. There is no reason to be afraid of using Soyuz.

European astronauts do travel into space by "foreign" systems for decades. And there is nothing wrong if US astronauts do travel into space only by "foreign" systems as well. In future we will see more international partnership, not only for the ISS.

Sputnik was a shock, just like for Russia Apollo was a shock because it was "not invented here". But that does not fit into the 21st Century anymore.

US, just like any other nation, should not be snared at for having them, under any circumstance, especially since most of the recent history technological and scientific achevements have been reached either by, or with American crucial assistance - including, and especially the ISS.

The ISS would not have been possible the way it is in orbit, without the Proton launches and all the Soyuz and Progress support flights, and most importently without the significant Russian space station and long term mission experience of which the USA had none until the late 1990s. Mir was in orbit for 15 years. That was something the USA and the rest of the ISS partners could build on.

The US progress in space is often overrated, especially because of Apollo and the collapse of the Soviet Union (which led to the Buran program cancellation). Russia was the first nation to send a satellite and a human into orbit for the very first time. And, before the ISS program, the only nation to operate a space station for 15 years, including the quite successfully Soyuz program which until today survived 3 US programs (actually 4 - Gemini, Apollo, Skylab and the STS).

Today more nations can join the Space Club thanks to "nationalistic" space race between USSR and USA.


Especially thanks to the German Reunification (and espcially to Margaret Thatcher, François Mitterrand, Helmut Kohl, Michail Gorbatschow etc.) and the collapse of the Soviet Union which at the end made the international work politically possible ;) But the Ariane launches into space since the late 1970s already.

ESA, JAXA, and other Space Agencies owe their creation to space programs initiated, largely funded and supported by the US - just like the pathetic UN.

Nope. The Ariane program for example, which is actually the core of ESA, is not supported by the US. It is solely a commercial European program, just like ESA is funded by its European members (national budgets, related to gross domestic product) and not by the US. Europe (ESA) funds the ISS program by 8 billion Euro (41% of that money is comming from Germany by the way), and support is done by the Ariane and the European Automated Transfer Vehicle (development and operation of the ATV costs more than 4 billion Euro).

I don't know about JAXA but the agency actually exists since the 1960s and I can't imagine it's funded by the USA. The USA already has enough problems with proper NASA funding.

There is another thing some people often forget in this context when they talk about the amazing "US" progress in the 20th Century: the Concorde, the only supersonic passenger aircraft that could carry 100 passengers with twice the speed of sound without reheat (reheat or the "after burner" were just used for acceleration up to Mach 1,7). Initially Concorde did not get a permission to land in the USA, because it was called to be too noisy. So far the initial conclusion, until they had to admit that some US aircraft at that time were even more noisy. The actual reason for the initial landing prohibition was just the "not invented here" mentality back then (even Henry Kissinger, a frequent  Cocnorde passenger, still likes to mention this).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 06:58:29 AM by Moonwalker »

Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 07:21:06 AM »
Thank you Admin, my eyes had glazed over ;) Very well said, thanks.

Don't worry. I'm just trying to explain that there is nothing wrong in case US astronauts ride into space on top of a foreign system ;)

The actual wrong thing is NASAs current program structure which is not sustainable, led into the Constellation cancellation and so fails to replace the STS on time. And since Obama has passed his health care reform, NASA is not facing a better future if not restructured soon. Remember that especially in manned space flight costs are proportional to the number of employees. And NASA is a big political job keeping program (instead of an efficient project keeping and replacing program). I know it does not sound nice but that's sadly the situation.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 07:24:54 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 09:55:54 PM »
I said what I had to say about patriotism and legitimate national interest and reject your claim that its context is "not invented here". You are talking about a local syndrome which some of the NASA managers have suffered of, but you cannot stick that to a whole nation or to the legitimacy of a national space program. That is superficial, narrow minded, not to say unfair.

Now I prefer to allow Astronaut (ret) Scott Parazynski to voice his opinion:

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2010/04/06/news/doc4bbaac8663f31963771722.txt

I think he doesn't suffer from any "not invented here" syndrome.

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